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indoctrin8ed
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Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

I'm new - so please confirm my understanding of a "problem" I am experiencing.

Scenario: In a quest for a better AP setup at my office (currently a pro-sumer grade Netgear AP with a single 6" external antenna), I've purchased what appeared to be a "very good" upgrade - a UBNT 10db 2.4 GHz 2x2 Omni and a M2 Rocket. I've got the new AP about 10 feet away from the old one but the new one (UBNT) is dropping packets - QCC hovers around 95% and a continuous ping test drops about 1 in 20 packets. Bummer. I've moved channels around, played with power levels, swapped their placements with each other nothing really makes a difference. The netgear is dropping 0% packets whil UBNT is suffering. Client machine is in the next room - 1 wall/wood/sheetrock/20 feet away. 20 MHz wide.

I ran a 5 min Airview capture from the Rocket and it looks pretty crowded (lots of solid green/blue - I can post if anyone cares, but I cannot do it on the netgear obviously). I also ran a capture from the client using the standalone USB/Airview (much quietier, much smaller antenna). Noise floor fluctuates from -75 at moments to -96)

Is this a case where the omni is so much more sensitive that it's picking up so much more crap that it's a less capable antenna/transceiver and thus a worse outcome?
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walrus0
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

That's a ridiculous setup for in-building use, the omni AP antenna and rocket M2 are intended for an outdoor radio tower/rooftop installation with a range of many miles. You are likely overloading the Rx on both sides of any link by a huge margin. I recommend selling what you have on eBay and buying something like the ubnt PowerAP N or a single Unifi Pro.
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indoctrin8ed
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

Why would there be support as an AP when lower power devices like phones cannot reach more than 100m? If I lower the output power down on the Rocket (which I have), I should benefit on the Rx gain from this antenna. Or ???
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WHT
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

Any wireless product used outside of the scope it was designed for will have unpredictable results. You chose a product ill suited for your needs.
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indoctrin8ed
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

FWIW, I do have an outdoor application for this. I don't see how moving it outside changes the science or the theory. I'm happy move the rig outside to see if that has any dramatic difference in my test setup - which I'm willing to bet that it will not.
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walrus0
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

You don't see how having a signal level of -21 on indoor laptops' radios (on the Rx) side might be bad? You may want to learn some basic RF theory...
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MeWireless
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

FWIW, I do have an outdoor application for this. I don't see how moving it outside changes the science or the theory. I'm happy move the rig outside to see if that has any dramatic difference in my test setup - which I'm willing to bet that it will not.


Move it outdoors and 50' up on a tower, that's where it belongs. What people are trying to tell you is you bought an antenna/radio combo that was made for a different use, still AP use but not designed for connection to laptops and the such. A 10db omni that has horizontal and vertical chains will pick up much more noise than your netgear with a single 6" antenna which is probably in the neighborhood of a 2db
Draw a picture of exactly what you're wanting to do. There is either a language barrier here or you don't understand this equipment. I suspect its a bit of both


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mhoppes
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

Moving the antenna and radio outside won't fix YOUR problem. People are saying the antenna you purchased was designed to be put on a tower.

You are overdriving the receiver in your laptops and phones (causing packet loss). Your phones and laptops are overdriving the receiver in the radio (causing packet loss).

You are way too close to that antenna.

As you've also discovered... that antenna has way too big of an ear to be that close to other sources of RF noise.

Get rid of it... wrong device.
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walrus0
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

Not only that, but his 10dB omni dual polarity antenna is probably picking up every 2.4 GHz device within a mile, increasing the noise floor... did he even pick a clean 20 MHz channel? In my experience the 2.4 omnis are only useful in very RF quiet outdoor areas, like a supremely rural place that has very few SOHO routers in it.
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urmom
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

While I was reading this thread I was trying to think of an analogy of the situation that might be easier to understand for people who are just getting into the game.

I think I got one.

Imagine you are wanting to write down the hottest girl's phone number that you ever met. You need a pencil but instead you get a super industrial strength marker because you want to make sure you get it right and you think that since its 'more' its better.

You have your piece of paper. You write down the number but the ink bleeds all together and makes the phone number unreadable.

If you had the correct tool, the pencil, you'd have that hot girl's number and you'd be calling her. But since you used the industrial strength marker and it wasn't meant for writing on paper, it wasn't the correct tool for the job.

That's how I see it, anyway.
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MeWireless
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

While I was reading this thread I was trying to think of an analogy of the situation that might be easier to understand for people who are just getting into the game.

I think I got one.

Imagine you are wanting to write down the hottest girl's phone number that you ever met. You need a pencil but instead you get a super industrial strength marker because you want to make sure you get it right and you think that since its 'more' its better.

You have your piece of paper. You write down the number but the ink bleeds all together and makes the phone number unreadable.

If you had the correct tool, the pencil, you'd have that hot girl's number and you'd be calling her. But since you used the industrial strength marker and it wasn't meant for writing on paper, it wasn't the correct tool for the job.

That's how I see it, anyway.


.......off to the store for more pencils incase I meet urmom :icon_mrgreen:
Draw a picture of exactly what you're wanting to do. There is either a language barrier here or you don't understand this equipment. I suspect its a bit of both


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All rights reserved - but some wrongs are still available.
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indoctrin8ed
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

Some of you guys are playing too much by "the rules" and not open to some creativity.

First of all, I can turn the Tx power down on the Rocket to almost zero to eliminate overpowering the station side receiver overpowering. At 15 feet away I can get it to where a laptop sees just 3/5 bars. This is a non problem. I have the client side AirView capture and it's inline with the Netgear.

In my experience the 2.4 omnis are only useful in very RF quiet outdoor areas, like a supremely rural place that has very few SOHO routers in it.


This is the nugget I was looking for and why I'm asking people with experience here. Thank you.

The intent was a very sensitive antenna with high gains through both capture area/dual polarity on the receiving side.

Walking around outside the test area (around the neighborhood), it works surprisingly well with a phone, can maintain a usable signal 2-3 blocks away, sans some annoying sporadic packet loss (2-5%). It looks like it's just TOO good of an Rx amplifier on both noise and signal to be fully stable.

As it turns out, there is no perfect single antenna solution to this problem, but this is as close as it is going to get.
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mhoppes
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

Some of you guys are playing too much by "the rules" and not open to some creativity.

First of all, I can turn the Tx power down on the Rocket to almost zero to eliminate overpowering the station side receiver overpowering. At 15 feet away I can get it to where a laptop sees just 3/5 bars. This is a non problem. I have the client side AirView capture and it's inline with the Netgear.



Yeah but you can't turn down the power on your laptop. You are still over driving the Rocket with the power from your laptop.



Walking around outside the test area (around the neighborhood), it works surprisingly well with a phone, can maintain a usable signal 2-3 blocks away, sans some annoying sporadic packet loss (2-5%). It looks like it's just TOO good of an Rx amplifier on both noise and signal to be fully stable.
.


Yes.. that's what everyone was saying. Wrong antenna for the job. Also, watch out for that third nipple.
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emillme2
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Are you even reading what others are saying here?

"Some of you guys are playing too much by "the rules" and not open to some creativity."
- If I were you and you want some help working this out...I'd be careful talking that way to most of these guys. They are busy, trying to run successful business' and don't really have time for snarky comments like this. Half of the worlds problems would go away in an instant if we took the tried and true advice of people who have been in your shoes before, dealt with your issues and failed.

"It looks like it's just TOO good of an Rx amplifier on both noise and signal to be fully stable."

- You, in this one statement, have just agreed with 90% of all the other posters here saying "Get the right damn gear". Ubuiqiti has a great radio for indoor AP use. Its called a Pico, I use them a lot and they work super. Buy one and be amazed.

So to sum things up (I really do apologize for my spouting off, please forgive me) you may get the rocket with its omni counterpart to work but it will be marginally at best. Good luck with that.
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walrus0
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

Using a rocket M2 and the 10dB omni indoors in an office or house is like buying a massively powerful dual socket, sixteen core/128GB RAM 1U server for use in your home office and then complaining that the fans are too loud.
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LittleBill
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

Using a rocket M2 and the 10dB omni indoors in an office or house is like buying a massively powerful dual socket, sixteen core/128GB RAM 1U server for use in your home office and then complaining that the fans are too loud.


thats why i use passive liquid cooling for my servers LOL
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Dave-D
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

'indoctrin8ed', I don't even know if you still
read this thread. But I strongly suggest
agains using any high-power WiFi radio in
close proximity to people.

Your setup--even it it 'worked'--would expose
nearby people to extremely high rf levels. I
can't say the FCC would object, but with any
sense of caution, I would never do this.

I would apply this to any of the outdoor Ubiquiti
radios used with high-gain antennas. Dave
No disclaimer. Nothing to sell. I need to fix that.
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walrus0
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

dave, you mean sleeping with a 34dB rocketdish and rocket M5 pointed at my head (to provide wifi to the adjacent tablet PC on my bedside table) isn't a good idea?
there's been this funny buzzing sensation in my left ear...
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WHT
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

Some of you guys are playing too much by "the rules" and not open to some creativity.


HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...............

That is sooooooooooo funny.

The "rules" are based on the laws of physics. You better learn how to work within those "rules".
WHT = Short Form Acronym for "You couldn't handle me even if I came with instructions!"
Well engineered projects are indistinguishable from crazy ideas.

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urmom
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Re: Better antenna NOT always better outcome?

.......off to the store for more pencils incase I meet urmom :icon_mrgreen:


ur silly
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