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ksys
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Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

Dear all !

Is it possible to use Airmax Antennas with Unifi UAP Outdoor units ?

Any experience ?
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Dave-D
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

Outdoor UniFi is essentially a Rocket
radio. You can use any of the AirMax
MIMO antennas. Dave
No disclaimer. Nothing to sell. I need to fix that.
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agsweeney
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

Dear all !

Is it possible to use Airmax Antennas with Unifi UAP Outdoor units ?

Any experience ?


Possible? Yes.

The UAP-Outdoor is in the same form factor as the RocketM2 and will attach to the AirMax antennas just like the AirOS counterparts.

However; just like the PicoM2/BulletM2 antenna issues, it may not be acceptable in the eyes of the FCC as the UAP-Outdoor is marketed with (2) 6dbi omni's and has not been "specifically tested" with any other antennas - even thought the UAP-Outdoor carries the same FCC ID as the RocketM2 and has a modified version of the RocketM2-GPS circuit board in it.

There needs to be official compliance documentation from UBNT on both the PicoM2 and UAP-Outdoor provided because it is a bit vague and confusing to understand how it may or may not be acceptable to use one device with another antenna but not another device that carries the same FCC-ID.

Once you digest that tidbit...

The only issues that will likely plague your outdoor deployment will be the fixed ACK timing in UniFi of 300 meters; an issue that I worked around with shell scripts and cron jobs on my (Linux-Based) UniFi Controller Server that directly modifies the settings on the AP's through the use of the "iwpriv" utility.

I have been running outdoor UniFi deployments for the last several months with over (25) M-Series and Legacy B/G clients connecting to UniFi AP's, some of them at distances of over 2 miles and aside from the inital issues with the ACK timings (that I worked around) it has been working flawlessly.

Jerry has been quite clear to me that what I am doing is not the targeted types of deployments that UniFi is designed for and not a priority to UBNT (which I fully understand) and as such my requests (Aug 8, 2011 & Aug 21, 2011) for ACK timing configuration options have gone unanswered.
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

thanks for that, 'agsweeney'.

What was I thinking? I made the same
point elsewhere. To my knowledge,
that outdoor UniFi is not certified for
any antenna except the provided
two omni antennas.

That means it may not be legal for
use with any of the AirMax antennas.

Sorry for my prior post. Dave
No disclaimer. Nothing to sell. I need to fix that.
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agsweeney
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

thanks for that, 'agsweeney'.

What was I thinking? I made the same
point elsewhere. To my knowledge,
that outdoor UniFi is not certified for
any antenna except the provided
two omni antennas.

That means it may not be legal for
use with any of the AirMax antennas.

Sorry for my prior post. Dave

I thought about pointing out that point that you made elsewhere but thought better of it. :icon_razz:
The specific information that WHT provided is in this post:
forum.ubnt.com/showpost.php?p=240999&postcount=37

Part 15.204 External radio frequency power amplifiers and antenna modifications.
(c) (4) Any antenna that is of the same type and of equal or less directional gain as an antenna that is authorized with the intentional radiator may be marketed with, and used with, that intentional radiator. No retesting of this system configuration is required. The marketing or use of a system configuration that employs an antenna of a different type, or that operates at a higher gain, than the antenna authorized with the intentional radiator is not permitted unless the procedures specified in Sec. 2.1043 of this chapter are followed.
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ksys
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

Possible? Yes.

The UAP-Outdoor is in the same form factor as the RocketM2 and will attach to the AirMax antennas just like the AirOS counterparts.

However; just like the PicoM2/BulletM2 antenna issues, it may not be acceptable in the eyes of the FCC as the UAP-Outdoor is marketed with (2) 6dbi omni's and has not been "specifically tested" with any other antennas - even thought the UAP-Outdoor carries the same FCC ID as the RocketM2 and has a modified version of the RocketM2-GPS circuit board in it.

There needs to be official compliance documentation from UBNT on both the PicoM2 and UAP-Outdoor provided because it is a bit vague and confusing to understand how it may or may not be acceptable to use one device with another antenna but not another device that carries the same FCC-ID.

Once you digest that tidbit...

The only issues that will likely plague your outdoor deployment will be the fixed ACK timing in UniFi of 300 meters; an issue that I worked around with shell scripts and cron jobs on my (Linux-Based) UniFi Controller Server that directly modifies the settings on the AP's through the use of the "iwpriv" utility.

I have been running outdoor UniFi deployments for the last several months with over (25) M-Series and Legacy B/G clients connecting to UniFi AP's, some of them at distances of over 2 miles and aside from the inital issues with the ACK timings (that I worked around) it has been working flawlessly.

Jerry has been quite clear to me that what I am doing is not the targeted types of deployments that UniFi is designed for and not a priority to UBNT (which I fully understand) and as such my requests (Aug 8, 2011 & Aug 21, 2011) for ACK timing configuration options have gone unanswered.


Nice work. Thank you !

Could you please write workaround ACK timing solution commands. If possible , write here step by step how to input commands to solve ACK timing problem. I plan to use UniFi same as you did.

Thank you in advance...
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

However; just like the PicoM2/BulletM2 antenna issues

Bullet 2/M2 is now either 18 or 22 dBi certified, I'd have to look.
/edit was recertified in spring of last year.
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agsweeney
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

Bullet 2/M2 is now either 18 or 22 dBi certified, I'd have to look.

/edit was recertified in spring of last year.


But does this address the PicoM2 with the same FCC-ID?
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

Sweeney,
So what happens if you are more than 1,000 feet without changing the ACK? Do you start getting dropped packets?
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agsweeney
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

Sweeney,
So what happens if you are more than 1,000 feet without changing the ACK? Do you start getting dropped packets?


What you will see when you get farther out is the client TX/RX rates are very unbalanced.

For example, one client of mine @ 1.76 miles (AirGridM2) from the AP has a RX/TX of 1/65 with a short ACK/Distance setting and a 65/65 with AutoACK and a proper distance setting.
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

A few comments.

  • UBNT sells products globally, and the non-US market is a very significant chunk of their business
  • What the FCC says can/cannot be used is irrelevant for that large chunk of UBNT's market. In otherwords - there is no legal reason not to run a UAP-Outdoor with an AMO-2G13 in many markets that UBNT sells very successfully into.
  • +1 for agsweeny's request for a fix to the 300m range bug in UniFi. While UBNT might not see that as a priority, the fact is that there are real world deployments out there (agsweeney's for a start) that need larger range. I have had to design around that bug in the quotes I am sending customers. I do find it strange for a company that made its mark in long range outdoor wifi, to pretend there is now no market for outdoor UniFi beyond 300m.
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mhoppes
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

A few comments.

  • UBNT sells products globally, and the non-US market is a very significant chunk of their business
  • What the FCC says can/cannot be used is irrelevant for that large chunk of UBNT's market. In otherwords - there is no legal reason not to run a UAP-Outdoor with an AMO-2G13 in many markets that UBNT sells very successfully into.
  • +1 for agsweeny's request for a fix to the 300m range bug in UniFi. While UBNT might not see that as a priority, the fact is that there are real world deployments out there (agsweeney's for a start) that need larger range. I have had to design around that bug in the quotes I am sending customers. I do find it strange for a company that made its mark in long range outdoor wifi, to pretend there is now no market for outdoor UniFi beyond 300m.

Actually this 300m issue now has me slightly worried. I'm doing an outdoor install with Rockets and I could easily see people using it close to this limit.
I guess the solution is to put repeater stations out so you are never more than 900feet from a client.
I'm guessing UBNTs logic is UniFi is for local wifi and if you want to go further you are kind of out of the scope of a traditional hot spot setup.
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

Matt and Robb:

Do you really see an important
market to cover portable devices with
Rocket beyond 300m? That's a very
long way from an access point.

I wouldn't say a user wouldn't try it,
but why expect to provide it? A
UniFi wasn't intended to replace the
Rocket for point-to-multipoint.

To put this another way, are you not
satisifed with the AirOS controller software? Dave
No disclaimer. Nothing to sell. I need to fix that.
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

Dave,
The issue is not 300m to a portable device.
It is 150m to portable device, and 300m to another UAP-Outdoor/AMO-2Gxx - using the new WDS-like feature.
Rob
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

Matt and Robb:

Do you really see an important
market to cover portable devices with
Rocket beyond 300m? That's a very
long way from an access point.

I wouldn't say a user wouldn't try it,
but why expect to provide it? A
UniFi wasn't intended to replace the
Rocket for point-to-multipoint.

To put this another way, are you not
satisifed with the AirOS controller software? Dave

and I'd never use UniFi to replace my commercial broadband network, but in several of our previous hot spot installs where we've used regular rockets and sectors clients were regularly more then 900 feet from the AP.
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

That's a point I hadn't considered, Rob.

It does make sense, although another
way would be to use a pair of NanoStation
Loco M5 to extend from one UniFi cluster
to another.

Matt, I've simply never had good results with
portable clients over about 200M. Dave
No disclaimer. Nothing to sell. I need to fix that.
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Virtual69
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

Does the ACK distance issue also affect UniFi to UniFi communications?

I was out last weekend, braving the windchill and snow...To do a little site surveying.

I was able to get about .8 miles away from the wired AP with the wireless uplinked AP. With my iPad connected to the wireless uplinked AP, I was able to stream 420p you tube videos with plenty of BW to spare.

My signal level was around 45%. I wish the UniFi controller reported in dbm units instead of percentage.
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas


I have been running outdoor UniFi deployments for the last several months with over (25) M-Series and Legacy B/G clients connecting to UniFi AP's, some of them at distances of over 2 miles and aside from the inital issues with the ACK timings (that I worked around) it has been working flawlessly.


thanks for the info.
Im kindly requesting to explain a bit further. It a subject i have been interested for a long time. Draws and pics will help

thanks
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sakita
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

Possible? Yes.

The UAP-Outdoor is in the same form factor as the RocketM2 and will attach to the AirMax antennas just like the AirOS counterparts.

However; just like the PicoM2/BulletM2 antenna issues, it may not be acceptable in the eyes of the FCC as the UAP-Outdoor is marketed with (2) 6dbi omni's and has not been "specifically tested" with any other antennas - even thought the UAP-Outdoor carries the same FCC ID as the RocketM2 and has a modified version of the RocketM2-GPS circuit board in it.

There needs to be official compliance documentation from UBNT on both the PicoM2 and UAP-Outdoor provided because it is a bit vague and confusing to understand how it may or may not be acceptable to use one device with another antenna but not another device that carries the same FCC-ID.

Once you digest that tidbit...

The only issues that will likely plague your outdoor deployment will be the fixed ACK timing in UniFi of 300 meters; an issue that I worked around with shell scripts and cron jobs on my (Linux-Based) UniFi Controller Server that directly modifies the settings on the AP's through the use of the "iwpriv" utility.

I have been running outdoor UniFi deployments for the last several months with over (25) M-Series and Legacy B/G clients connecting to UniFi AP's, some of them at distances of over 2 miles and aside from the inital issues with the ACK timings (that I worked around) it has been working flawlessly.

Jerry has been quite clear to me that what I am doing is not the targeted types of deployments that UniFi is designed for and not a priority to UBNT (which I fully understand) and as such my requests (Aug 8, 2011 & Aug 21, 2011) for ACK timing configuration options have gone unanswered.


The key point...

even thought the UAP-Outdoor carries the same FCC ID as the RocketM2


...doesn't the FCC go by FCC ID? In other words, go to the FCC OET web site and look up the ID. That will tell you what FCC grants exist for that product ID. If it is the same FCC ID then it is the same radio. If it is the same radio then it can use the same antennas.

Of course, one would have to be sure that the FCC ID on the product is the correct one. There was an issue on another product with incorrect ID stickers (which was later corrected).

The reason I bring this up, of course, is a potential need to use the AMO antennas with the Unifi outdoor device.
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Re: Unifi UAP Outdoor & Airmax Antennas

The key point...



...doesn't the FCC go by FCC ID? In other words, go to the FCC OET web site and look up the ID. That will tell you what FCC grants exist for that product ID. If it is the same FCC ID then it is the same radio. If it is the same radio then it can use the same antennas.

Of course, one would have to be sure that the FCC ID on the product is the correct one. There was an issue on another product with incorrect ID stickers (which was later corrected).

The reason I bring this up, of course, is a potential need to use the AMO antennas with the Unifi outdoor device.


It is the FCC language that states that if a device is "marketed with" and not "specifically certified for" that causes the issue; just like the PicoM2/BulletM2 issue where the PicoM2 is marketed with its' 6db omni.

Dave and WHT posted the specifics in another post.

Truth be told, I am not sure the RocketM has even been certified for use with the AMO's....
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