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Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?

We have always had success in running airMax stations in Router / PPPoE mode for bandwidth allocation.

 

Will LTU PtMP stations have this out of the box to maintain consistency?

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?

Router mode will be available at one point fairly early on.  But keep in mind that the internal hardware bridge cannot be used in router mode.  So performance will be slower.  

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?


@ClaudeSSwrote:

Router mode will be available at one point fairly early on.  But keep in mind that the internal hardware bridge cannot be used in router mode.  So performance will be slower.  


For PtMP stations, not having the bridge speed is an acceptable tradeoff.

 

However, right now a AF-5XHD has 3 "interfaces".  I would like if 2 of those can be hardware bridged and then have that "bridge" be allowed as an interface of a 2 interface router. Man Happy

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?


@JustJoewrote:

@ClaudeSSwrote:

Router mode will be available at one point fairly early on.  But keep in mind that the internal hardware bridge cannot be used in router mode.  So performance will be slower.  


For PtMP stations, not having the bridge speed is an acceptable tradeoff.

 

However, right now a AF-5XHD has 3 "interfaces".  I would like if 2 of those can be hardware bridged and then have that "bridge" be allowed as an interface of a 2 interface router. Man Happy


The LTU chipset does not include a HW router.  Any routing has to be done in software, bypassing the HW bridge.  

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?

That seems like a short sighted oversight. How hard would it have been for the LTU CPE's to have the hardware nat offload like the ERx?
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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?


@deerefanaticwrote:
That seems like a short sighted oversight. How hard would it have been for the LTU CPE's to have the hardware nat offload like the ERx?

???

 

Think about this.  You want to include an ER-X and all its supporting circuitry in the LTU radio?  Just to avoid buying a customer router?

 

In this day and age, customer routers run at gig clock speeds in order to handle the speeds and connected devices.  In my opinion to try and burden the LTU radios CPU with the routing job defeats the purpose of the increased speeds of the LTU radio.   

 

All my LTU customers have a separate router in the $150 to $400 range.  

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?


@ClaudeSSwrote:

@deerefanaticwrote:
That seems like a short sighted oversight. How hard would it have been for the LTU CPE's to have the hardware nat offload like the ERx?

???

 

Think about this.  You want to include an ER-X and all its supporting circuitry in the LTU radio?  Just to avoid buying a customer router?

 

In this day and age, customer routers run at gig clock speeds in order to handle the speeds and connected devices.  In my opinion to try and burden the LTU radios CPU with the routing job defeats the purpose of the increased speeds of the LTU radio.   

 

All my LTU customers have a separate router in the $150 to $400 range.  


See now that is where the problem lies.  Many of us do not design networks the way you do.  Many of us bought Ubiquiti products for the included router function that does a very good job of protecting networks from Layer2 access at the exposed Ethernet demarc, and they have worked very well that way for years.  Man Happy

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?

[ Edited ]

@JustJoe wrote:

See now that is where the problem lies.  Many of us do not design networks the way you do.  Many of us bought Ubiquiti products for the included router function that does a very good job of protecting networks from Layer2 access at the exposed Ethernet demarc, and they have worked very well that way for years.  Man Happy


It's less important for the AP, but the CPE really needs to support router mode.

 

 

 

 

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?

I'm sorry, but having bridged CPE is a terrible idea. How well does that work when a user connects their router backwards and starts handing out DHCP addresses all over your network? How do you do centralized bandwidth controls when you have no way to control what IP address the customer's router receives? I'm sorry, but this is standard CPE stuff. As for adding the cost of an ER-x to the price, that's a bit extreme.. We don't need a switch chip. We HW nat offload.. I mean, for goodness sake.. You went to the effort ot build a custom radio chip, but nobody thought that hardware NAT would be a good idea?

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?

I'm getting a little confused here - does everyone think that the LTU radio is going to be a swap-in for an M or AC series CPE?   Look at the price difference, if nothing else.   With an antenna added the LTU will cost 2x or more than what an AC client does - if the cost of a $59 router is an issue, why are you looking at LTU for CPE in the first place?

 

And yes, as Claude and others have said, basic firewall and PPPoE will eventually be included in the radio itself.   It's not like this will drop the throughput to nothing, it's just not as fast as it could be in HW bridged mode.   Unless you are selling 300Mb service to all your customers this will work fine.

 

And nobody is talking about bridged to the customer port, allowing DHCP leakage etc.   This is where you use an ER-X or a USG or even an AirCube/AmpliFi.   For lower end customers we're using a ton of LightBeams - think about where you are going to use the LTU radios before you get too worried about all this...

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?


@deerefanaticwrote:

I'm sorry, but having bridged CPE is a terrible idea. How well does that work when a user connects their router backwards and starts handing out DHCP addresses all over your network? How do you do centralized bandwidth controls when you have no way to control what IP address the customer's router receives? I'm sorry, but this is standard CPE stuff. As for adding the cost of an ER-x to the price, that's a bit extreme.. We don't need a switch chip. We HW nat offload.. I mean, for goodness sake.. You went to the effort ot build a custom radio chip, but nobody thought that hardware NAT would be a good idea?


This is all very trivial in bridge mode which is why the cable companies and Fiber companies use bridge mode with a separate customer router.   Client Isolation prevents DHCP from going anywhere.  

 

Ubiquiti is selling $1,500 routers and you somehow expect the radio CPU to perform that function while delivering data?

 

Routers on radios made sense 8 years ago when speed expectations were low and the number of connected devices was low.  Look at the AirCube with router mode with POE out for the radio.  

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?


@eejimmwrote:

I'm getting a little confused here - does everyone think that the LTU radio is going to be a swap-in for an M or AC series CPE?   Look at the price difference, if nothing else.   With an antenna added the LTU will cost 2x or more than what an AC client does - if the cost of a $59 router is an issue, why are you looking at LTU for CPE in the first place?

 


Uhh, I thought LTU CPE were going to be priced at airMAX levels, that's what's been said repeatedly by folks here....

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?


@twinkletoeswrote:

@eejimmwrote:

I'm getting a little confused here - does everyone think that the LTU radio is going to be a swap-in for an M or AC series CPE?   Look at the price difference, if nothing else.   With an antenna added the LTU will cost 2x or more than what an AC client does - if the cost of a $59 router is an issue, why are you looking at LTU for CPE in the first place?

 


Uhh, I thought LTU CPE were going to be priced at airMAX levels, that's what's been said repeatedly by folks here....


It will cost more, but not 2X more unless you're comparing with a LocoM5.   If you look at the price of a PowerBeam 500AC, the LTU with 500mm dish will not be that much more.  

 

 

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?


@ClaudeSSwrote:

 

Ubiquiti is selling $1,500 routers and you somehow expect the radio CPU to perform that function while delivering data?

 

Routers on radios made sense 8 years ago when speed expectations were low and the number of connected devices was low.  Look at the AirCube with router mode with POE out for the radio.  


Does anyone know the limitations of router mode vs. bridge mode?

 

Bridge mode is listed as 2Mpps accoridng to the box. That's very impressive. I can get jiggy with this. But even 20kpps would be fine for router mode, on a typical PTMP CPE. The armv7 processor in the LTU af5xhd is definitely anemic, as you can see by the long time it spends just checksumming the firmware on upload. Probably there are some MP benefits in the Linux network stack (router mode) that aren't going to show up withe f/w checksum. So I think we can assume 20kpps is realisitic. But does anyone actually know?

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?

Setting aside the issues of cost and performance for the moment, not supporting router mode in the CPE will require operators to change deployment practices.

 

This, at least for me, comes as a bit of a surprise as I suspect it will to others.

 

 

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?

Router node will be supported.

 

Just not using the fast hardware bridge. 

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?


@twinkletoes wrote:

@ClaudeSSwrote:

 

Ubiquiti is selling $1,500 routers and you somehow expect the radio CPU to perform that function while delivering data?

 

Routers on radios made sense 8 years ago when speed expectations were low and the number of connected devices was low.  Look at the AirCube with router mode with POE out for the radio.  


Does anyone know the limitations of router mode vs. bridge mode?

 

Bridge mode is listed as 2Mpps accoridng to the box. That's very impressive. I can get jiggy with this. But even 20kpps would be fine for router mode, on a typical PTMP CPE. The armv7 processor in the LTU af5xhd is definitely anemic, as you can see by the long time it spends just checksumming the firmware on upload. Probably there are some MP benefits in the Linux network stack (router mode) that aren't going to show up withe f/w checksum. So I think we can assume 20kpps is realisitic. But does anyone actually know?


@twinkletoes  We have software teams working on router mode as a top priority.  It is planned for the MP launch of the LTU PtMP product.  I am hoping that we start getting enough of this into test so we can supply additional performance specifications in the next few weeks so we can keep you guys posted (or even have you testing this for us!)...

 

Gary

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?


@JustJoewrote:

@ClaudeSSwrote:

@deerefanaticwrote:
That seems like a short sighted oversight. How hard would it have been for the LTU CPE's to have the hardware nat offload like the ERx?

???

 

Think about this.  You want to include an ER-X and all its supporting circuitry in the LTU radio?  Just to avoid buying a customer router?

 

In this day and age, customer routers run at gig clock speeds in order to handle the speeds and connected devices.  In my opinion to try and burden the LTU radios CPU with the routing job defeats the purpose of the increased speeds of the LTU radio.   

 

All my LTU customers have a separate router in the $150 to $400 range.  


See now that is where the problem lies.  Many of us do not design networks the way you do.  Many of us bought Ubiquiti products for the included router function that does a very good job of protecting networks from Layer2 access at the exposed Ethernet demarc, and they have worked very well that way for years.  Man Happy


I think the better answer to this is proper functionality to protect the Layer2. Functionality to block undesired traffic (DHCP servers, or non-PPPoE traffic depending on your flavour), etc. Like proper ethernet in the last mile setups.

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?


@NVXwrote:

I think the better answer to this is proper functionality to protect the Layer2. Functionality to block undesired traffic (DHCP servers, or non-PPPoE traffic depending on your flavour), etc. Like proper ethernet in the last mile setups.


Strongly agreed.

 

DHCP Option 82 support in EdgeOS and UNMS/UCRM with a cohesive model for near-zero-touch provisioning would rock my world.

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Re: Will LTU PtMP have Router Mode with PPPoE as an Option?


@NVXwrote:

I think the better answer to this is proper functionality to protect the Layer2. Functionality to block undesired traffic (DHCP servers, or non-PPPoE traffic depending on your flavour), etc. Like proper ethernet in the last mile setups.


 

I think if you could just limit the LAN1 bridge table to only bridge to the specified MAC of the customer router, you'd be fine.  They plug anything else in, and it won't bridge.  

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